Me: Why do you care?
Him: I don't, really. I'm just curious.
Me: Why are you curious?
Him: Ummm...not to sound rude or anything, but you say you research stuff and you're logical and all that. This isn't logical.
Me: No.
Him: So you believe some things without being logical or researching?
Me: I didn't say that.
Him: But I'm asking.
Me: Why?
Him: Okay, you don't want to talk about this. That's cool.
Me: Wrong. I always want to talk about it. I don't want to debate it. No one wins, everyone gets mad and feels defensive, relationships are not strengthened. It's a no-win situation.
Him: You think I want to argue with you?
Me: I think you want to be right. I think you want me to agree with you.
Him: Maybe.
Me: Let me ask you this: If there was something in your life that had deep personal importance to you, something you loved and nurtured because it brought you joy and/or peace, what would be my reaction to that?
Him: Okay, I get it.
Me: You're not going to answer?
Him: If it makes you happy--you'd support me, you'd respect that it was important even if you didn't agree with my belief, or whatever.
Me: Would I question it? Try to talk you out of it?
Him: Probably not.
Me: Unless I felt it was hurting you (examples: drug addiction, abusive behavior, destructive emotional dependency), I would allow you to enjoy that association or belief which brought you joy without criticising or commenting.
Him: But what if I joined the Ku Klux Klan, or some organization like that? And tried to take rights away from other people.
Me: Do you see me taking rights from other people?
Him: No. But the organization you belong to does.
Me: I belong to many organizations.
Him: You know what I'm talking about.
Me: I'm a U.S. citizen, but I don't necessarily support many of the decisions our past president made. I'm guessing you don't either.
Him: It's a little different to give up citizenship of a country.
Me: No doubt, but there are many countries which view the U.S. as forcibly taking rights from other countries and imposing upon them their system of beliefs. Regardless of whether or not you agree with that viewpoint, it exists.
Him: I feel like you're trying to derail us.
Me: How?
Him: By talking about something that really has nothing to do with the original question.
Me: What was the original question?
Him: Why do you believe?
Me: There are many who will present what they view as evidence, relate personal anecdotes and experiences, berate those who do not believe, and predict dire consequences for all who disagree with them. I am not one of those. Quite honestly, I don't care if you and I never believe the same things.
Him: People who believe differently can't ever be close friends.
Me: Where are you getting your information?
Him: Well, I mean, you believe in something that I believe tries to harm me, personally. An organization that tries to take away my basic human rights.
Me: Go to a poverty-stricken country in Africa and have them define basic human rights.
Him: We're not talking about Africa.
Me: True. But my point is twofold:
1. People differ on the definition of "basic human rights."
2. It's unfair of you to assign to me all the "wrongs" you find in an large organization to which I belong.
Again, I remind you, there are many acts people have done with the approval of our own government, the responsibility of which I'm guessing you'd rather not have assigned to you.
Him: But you can leave the church. Easily.
Me: Can I?
Him: It's a simple matter of having your membership removed.
Me: Is it?
Him: Yes.
Me: And why will this bring me happiness?
Him: Because then you won't belong to a bigoted machine that tries to keep people who love each other from having committed, stable lives.
Me: Except--I believe.
Him: In what?
Me: In what I have found to be the essence of the gospel. And regardless of whether or not you agree with what I believe, my leaving it behind will not bring me joy.
Him: So you'll stay and have joy while others are hurt by your "source" of joy?
Me: We disagree about many things. I'm comfortable with disagreement, as long as I'm not told how to act or believe. You want to be right. I don't care if people think I'm right. You want to recruit. I don't want anyone to follow me--ever. You need to feel supported in your beliefs. I need to feel supported as a person--but have no interest in having my beliefs validated by anyone else.
Him: The church is wrong.
Me: I can see why you would believe that.
Him: It's not a belief. It's a fact.
Me: Okay.
Him: Does that mean you agree with me?
Me: Nope. Neither does it mean I disagree.
Him: You're sort of impossible.
Me: I know.
7 comments:
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But at least you're polite.
I won't be the least bit upset or offended if you delete this comment — but I think it's important to say, even if you're the only one who reads it …
So here goes. This is utter BS:
Well, I mean, you believe in something that I believe tries to harm me, personally. An organization that tries to take away my basic human rights.
No one has an inalienable right to tax breaks. No one. And since this is about the government choosing which relationships it wants to encourage via a complex (unnecessarily so, I'd say) set of tax and other incentives, I call BS. It would be like a renter bellyaching about all the tax incentives home buyers get. Sure, we can argue whether it's good policy — even "right" policy. But "basic human rights" don't enter the equation.
I could go on … but your blog isn't really the place for me to pontificate.
;)
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And what Th. said: at least you were polite.
Th.--I usually am. I'm fun, too.
:-)
Silus--You make some good points, but as I've found, this is an emotional issue. I'm unable to avoid the crossfire. But the bottom line, right or wrong...he can't make me stop loving him. And for me, that's more important than anything we were discussing.
Very well said.
:)
I think it's a bit much to say that just because your religion is doing something Wrong that the religion itself must be Wrong. The people running that religion are still human and therefore subject to flaws. They run the religion as it makes sense to themit and in the ways they understand the world to be. They are bound to be wrong from time to time, but the point is that they're doing their best.
I don't believe them to be inspired, but I don't think you need to believe that their flaws make them uninspired, either.
I like that you still showed love in spite of the disagreement. He is lucky to have you as his friend.
Ha, I enjoy your conversations. I'm not gonna talk about which points I think are right or wrong, but I will say your thought process makes sense to me, and I think I know nearly exactly what you're saying in your seemingly "impossible" comments...I suppose that makes me impossible, too. :-)
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